Phytoestrogens - Help With PCT?

[crank]

Hey bro's, was trying to do research on any kind of Legal Anti-Estrogen that was available in Canada since we can't get 6-OXO here or Instone Anti-E Products from GNC.

I came across phyto-estrogens and wanted to do some more research, I pulled up a lot of medical websites and menopause websites to find out exactly what they are and how they affected estrogen levels.

I found that Phytoestrogens will compete with the estrogen already in the body for receptor sites and act as an anti-estrogen. A lot of what I've found was positive but I'll let the information speak for itself.

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"Phytoestrogens Defined
From the desk of Deb Moskowitz, N.D., a TFH-Women's Institute Physician

The word, phytoestrogen, comes from "phyto", meaning plant, and "estrogen" due to their ability to affect estrogenic activity in the body. It is important to know that although phytoestrogens may have some similar actions to estrogens, they are not true estrogens like our bodies produce. Phytoestrogens are a group of compounds found in plants that influence our own estrogen activity. They can bind to receptor sites in your body and have either "pro-estrogenic" or "anti-estrogenic" effects, depending on how much estrogen you are already producing. If your estrogen level is low, as it is in menopause, empty receptor sites can be filled with phytoestrogens, which can produce a weak pro-estrogenic effect. If your estrogen levels are high, as in some women who suffer from PMS and endometriosis, then phytoestrogens can compete with our own estrogens for binding to receptors. In this case, when the phytoestrogens are successful, they decrease overall estrogenic activity because their effect on target tissues is less than if our stronger estrogens had been allowed to bind."

Taken From: nutrimart.com
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"There are two main categories of phytoestrogens: isoflavone-type phytoestrogens that occur mostly in legume plants such as red clover, soy, licorice, kudzu and beans (including genistein, daidzein, formononetin and biochanin-A)

Genistein and daidzein inhibit estrogen synthesis and have an overall "anti-estrogen" effect (like Nolvadex (Tamoxifen) but without the side-effects and risks). "

Taken From: florainc.com

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"Third are the phytoestrogens that take the place of estradiol and cause excretion of the excess estrogen in the body. Phytoestrogens have about 1/500 the strength of regular estrogen so this plant estrogen is really good for men "

Taken From: A Website On The Natural Treatment of Hypogonadism

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I am in no way saying that phytoestrogens are a replacement for Nolva/Clomid, but think that they may be able to help some people or even be a good addition to Post Cycle Therapy.

Does anyone have any real experiences using phytoestrogens or have any other information or opinions?

 

[Cordoba]

bump

 

[ColdHeartBear]

With prohormones (4ad, 5aa) I have used DIM and Beta sitasterol for estrogen blocking and cleaning out excess insulin and other hormones, and phosphatidyl serine and pregnenolone for cortisol control. 3 of the 4 are considered phytoestrogens. They did the job.

 

[crank]

Info on DIM:

(DIM)
Dimm or Di-Indolin or Diindolylmethane or Diindolymethane stops estrogen from changing into estradiol.

You can buy ESTRODEX from supplement stores or online which has DIM in it.

ESTRODEX is comprised of Diindole Methane (DIM), 3,5,4'-trihydroxy-trans-stilbene and Calcium D-Glucarate. Together these ingredients work synergistically at blocking testosterone and androgens from converting into estrogens. Estrodex also works by metabolizing estrogen into inactive metabolites, blocking estrogen at the actual estrogen receptor site in male breast tissue, and at freeing excess estrogen from the body.

I have not used Estrodex myself but thought this information may be useful to some people.

 

[ColdHeartBear]

Calcium d-glucarate is a fruit based general hormone remover which is greater than 3 x as effective as beta sitasterol for removing excess steroidal hormones but unfortunately cost from 7 to 12 x as much. Unlike Beta Sitasterol it does not remove excess insulin.

 

[crank]

Thanks for the added info Coldheart

You always have the extra's people miss!

 

[crank]

DIM INFO

Just found some more info on DIM for anyone interested

DIM/I3C

DIM is short for Di-indolylmethane, which is two I3C molecules bonded together. I3C is indole-3-carbinol a phytochemical found in Brassica vegetables such as Brussel sprouts, broccoli and cabbages. It is known to have potent anti-cancer properties due to its anti-estrogenic activity. DIM is also found in the same vegetables but in smaller quantities.

It appears that the potent circulating estrogen- estradiol is converted by DIM and I3C to lesser estrogens and their metabolites, particularly estrone, a weak estrogenic hormone. It is believed that the estrogen- estradiol - may have carcinogenic properties at high levels, whilst the other estrogens have non-carcinogenic or perhaps even anti-carcinogenic properties.

Of greater interest to bodybuilders is the relationship between estrogen and water retention, fat gain and gynecomastia. Any supplement that reduces estradiol will – hopefully – raise testosterone levels(or reduce suppression), assist with fat loss, reduce prostatic enlargement, and give the muscles a harder appearance.

DIM has is believed to be 10 times as potent than I3C alone. The current thinking is that I3C is converted by stomach acids into DIM, and that it is DIM that is the active ingredient that alters estrogen ratios. This has been borne out in liver studies. This may make DIM the preferred supplement (we have already used ‘Di-Indolin by Sports One with success).

Dosages of DIM for treatment of cancer are being considered preventative at around 1mg per Kg bodyweight daily. Dosages for treatment are likely to be 4mg per Kg plus daily.

We think that for bodybuilding purposes that the higher dose is more appropriate, especially for bodybuilders using a large amount of aromatisable steroids, but some experimentation is required. Perhaps starting at the lower dose, and increasing every second day until the desired result is achieved is the best approach.

Although natural supplements like this may not be the complete answer to the steroid/estrogen problem, they definitely are of value, especially on ‘lighter’ cycles. Besides which, total suppression of estrogen is definitely anti-anabolic, and an estrogen reducer (as opposed to an estrogen blocker) may be the answer to keeping side-effects to a minimum without destroying the anabolic potency of aromatising steroids.

 

[crank]

DIM INFO:

And some more which I enjoyed reading. I crave information

DIM stimulates more efficient estrogen metabolism. Supplementing the diet with DIM and eating cruciferous vegetables increases the specific aerobic metabolism for estrogen, multiplying the chance for estrogen to be broken down into its beneficial, or "good" estrogen metabolites. These "good"estrogen metabolites are known as the 2-hydroxy estrogens. Many of the benefits that are attributed to estrogen, which include its ability to protect the heart and brain with its antioxidant activity, are now known to come from these "good" metabolites.

When DIM increases the "good" estrogen metabolites, there is a simultaneous reduction in the levels of undesirable or "bad" estrogen metabolites. These include the 16-hydroxy estrogens, which are not antioxidants and can actually cause cancer. Greater production of these "bad" estrogen metabolites is promoted by obesity and exposure to a number of manmade environmental chemicals. These "bad" estrogen metabolites are responsible for many of estrogen's undesirable actions in women and men, including further unwanted weight gain, breast cancer, and uterine cancer.

In addition, a slow metabolism of estrogen, which leaves too much unmetabolized active estrogen known as estradiol in the body, can be a problem for both women and men. Elevated estradiol causes moodiness and breast pain in women and loss of sex drive in men. By promoting a healthy estrogen metabolism, DIM adjusts the balance of estradiol to its "good" metabolites. This also can result in a more desirable action fro testosterone. Testosterone supports energy and mood and helps sustain interest in sex in both men and women. When supplemental DIM is taken along with a program of regular exercise, it can help estrogen and testosterone contribute to good physical conditioning.

 

[crank]

CALCIUM D-GLUCARATE INFO:

In 1986 Walaszek and co-workers demonstrated that taking D-Glucarate orally, in animals and humans, leads to a slow release of a substance that inhibits glucuronidase. Glucuronidase is an enzyme that thwarts the body’s efforts to rid itself of cancer causing substances known as carcinogens. Walaszek demonstrated that if you feed animals Glucarate, there is an increase in the level of a substance known as D-Glucaro-lactone, which inhibits glucuronidase. He looked at a model for breast cancer induction in rats, the animal used most frequently for breast cancer research. Rats given anthracene develop breast cancer, but if they were pre-treated with dietary Glucarate, tumor development was blocked in over 70% of the animals. It was shown that when D-Glucarate was fed to the animals, the levels of estradiol (the form of estrogen that causes breast cancer) were decreased in the blood. In summery, D-Glucarate lowers the level of glucuronidase, and in so doing allows the body eliminate harmful carcinogens (cancer causing chemicals).

Taken From: The Preventative Health Center