kerry or bush?

[jdawg50]

Econ 101- it takes 8 years for economic policy to take effect. We are now reaping the benifits of the changes that Clinton made, coupled with the effects of 9/11. The economy was good for the eight years Clinton was in office from the changes made by Bush Senior and Reagan. And the actual tax rates on the weathy are higher than middle class. Making $1million now means actually "taking home" $1/2 million. The middleclass pays nowhere near that rate, it is closer to 1/3. Personally, I feel the only fair tax system would be a flat rate. Everybody pays the same percentage regardless of income, but that is another LONG discussion.

Ahhhhhh,,, this is soooo refreshing... I was starting to think 1/2 the country is a bunch of retards.....oh yea they are.
I wish they would make Econ a required class in Elemetary school.
When Reagan took office the highest tax bracket was over 70%!!!!!!!!!!! now that's nuts
Flat Consumption tax... including legalizing drugs and taxing them... I'd pay tax on gear.... ya wanna know why? It would be soooooooo cheap if it was legal. (Unless that taxed it like 500000%)

 

[ColdHeartBear]

If you consider the pre Reagon element of 67 different sub-titles of deductions as part of the tax code then you also know only the new rich paid the 70% tax rate. Most of the rich paid less than 4% in taxes and paid a large number of accountants and lawyers to keep it that way.
So every time you see these extremely rich guys parrot the democratic line....know the real reason why.

And on the other side is the dirty little secret of why U.S. production of oil dropped during and after reagon was in office. Before Reagon the more oil pumped the more tax credit (depletion tax credit was over 100% of value of oil pumped if you met all the criteria laid out by the credit and supporting deductions) there was...in effect oil companies paid no tax for the most part and were selling shares to such albatrosses as actors and actresses who in effect also paid no taxes due to the huge credits involved. And you thought these ancient has beens had no stake other than ideology in the democratic party. (see Ed Asner, and Barbara Streisand for prime examples of this perfidy. Barbara Streisand even lobbied Gerald Ford to get her credit back on a piece of fraud she was involved in called the prime stake holding in Oklahoma which did not strike new oil as required under the very special credit [120 % credit] which she had been claiming. The true perfidy is that the Republicans did not have the necessary cojones to arrest these crooks)

 

[ColdHeartBear]

And for my fellow old fogeys who are still in the democratic party and want to muddy the above post....I know the difference between Homestake of Oklahoma wherein Streisand lost money in a ponzi scheme and the successful fraud she got away with called Prime Stake Oil Exploratory Company. Tip O'Neil and Mike Mansfield nearly got her pet tax scam reinstated several times. The oil depletion allowance is still too high and, unfortunately does not apply to new found oil.....The old rich does its best to foil new guys from becoming rich the same way the old rich got rich.

 

[rubicon]

Personally I don't like these kinds of discussions but this is so one-sidedly in the wrong direction it's as if there is only one opinion. So you want Bush. That means that , of course, you also support good ol' boy rascism among other things and don't even bother to bring-up those shameful step-n-fetch-its like Powell and Rice. They only further prove the point. Supporting Bush also means you're in favor of the rich prospering at the cost of the middle class and the poor, the real tax payers. You also support corporate welfare. Like they have ever done anything for us. Oh, that's right, so far we've allowed about 1000 brave American soldiers die in Iraq on the behalf of oil companies. And remember, those corporations don't pay anywhere near the percentage of tax that you do. Then there is the sadly growing numbers of the homeless. Just be like Bush. Use your vote to turn your back on them. How about health care for the elderly, the poor and the working class? So we just follow Bush and pretend that they're not there. The economy, don't make laugh.
Reagan had no idea what to do with it unless , of course,if you were rich from the beginning. It took Clinton, yes Bill Clinton, to open it up for the us, the little guys, the middle class. But after 8 years, count them, 8 years of the most prosperous times we've ever known, it took Bush less than 4 years to throw us back into unemployment and desparation. No one should regret the end of a dictator. But let's not confuse Saddam with Adolf. There is , nor has there ever been any eveidence of weapons of mass destruction. Iraq was not an immediate threat. There was still time to gather more international support. Our money would have been better spent going after the real terrorists in Afghanistan while gathering more support and putting more pressure on Irac. There is much more to 911 than revenge or getting the public's mind off of a weak president's mishandling of the economy and homeland security.. It's not just about kicking ass. And if
we have to, we should at least try to kick the right asses.
Now I don't believe even for a moment that anything I've said is going to change any one's mind. But look at the polls. There are far more people that would adhere to most of what I've said than those who would follow the general opinion otherwise expressed here. If I have any concern at all for the Americans fighting in Iraq and abroad, for the poor, the elderly, the working class and our personal freedoms, the vote goes to Kerry.

 

[ColdHeartBear]

Show evidence for your positions rubicon then maybe you could actually "change" someone's mind.
Most of the racists I see are the democrats who denounce any black, "neo-conservative" (read jewish), hispanic, asian, or or even gay who does not parrot the left wing lines the democrats put out today.
As to polls.....Bush is leading after the democratic convention.....no candidate for president has ever won that was behind immediately after his party's convention before the other guys convention so you certainly have no support in your position there.
And the 10 greediest, most contemptible corporate brown nosers of the stock exchange proudly hold the party designation democrat: not counting the socialist George Soros, Gates, William H III; Buffett, Warren E; Albrecht, Karl & Theo; Allen, Paul G; Ellison, Lawrence J; Walton, S Robinson; Thomson, David; And Dell, Michael;

All of the above are the richest people in america and except for 6 non politicals and Kluge, Werner the sole Republican, they are all democrats. They also have in common that they were born to well to do families and made their fortunes off the backs of better people again with the single exception of Kluge who is a self made billionaire.
Still a member of the KKK is the democrat Senator Robert C. Byrd.
And don't tell me about his repudiatiuon in Washington D. C. He still publicly takes the KKK oath in Charlotte every year.
Jim Crow racism is a democratic party creation.
The current racist anti-asian immigration laws were sponsored solely by democrats.
The racist aspects of every major congressional act for the last 60 years were sponsored only by democrats.
The majority of democrats voted against the civil rights act of 1964. It passed only because the republicans voted unanimousely for it.
I backed my allegations with checkable facts.....now try to prove your lies.

 

[carlsky]

that is all bullshit!!! Everything rubicon just said is a complete lie. Read a book and learn something. Democrats need to look at the truth of things and not what they feel is the truth! None of their statements are based on any truth whatsoever! "Sadly growing homeless numbers" shit!!! Give me a break! Emploement rates are the best they have ever been! If there is homeless people it is because they haven't treid to work or have not pursued some kind of education. I fuckin hate democrats!!! Nothing but trouble. Can't you people see why we lost vietnam? It was because of democrats saying no don't bomb here and shit. Plus drugs but mainly that. The democrats are trying to do vietnam all over again.

 

[fun28hi]

you would think bush's position on steroids and drugs would be enough for no one on here to vote for him... Do you really think a guy taking test should go to prision like a guy doing crack? I believe all drugs should be legal... but that is another subject; i just find it hard to believe that you would vote for someone that wants you in jail and brand you a fellon....

 

[carlsky]

Hey fucko! He does that because steroids support terrorists! What the shit is this? Drugs kill buddy and ruin people's life! WHat do you smoke crack or something? I am for steroids but not for addictive drugs that kill and wreck life. Bush wants a strong country by taking out terrorism so we are safe. OK ya gas is a little more expensive and so are taxes but we have to fight if we want to live unless you want another 9/11 to happen

 

[ColdHeartBear]

Actually most of us are smarter than that position fun28hi. We may completely oppose a candidate on several issues (The Prescription drug bill, FDA crusade against natural substances, etc...) but look at the larger picture and the alternatives. None of the candidate I might support have a chance of winning. So I choose the best of the viables.
I am an ex-democrat....not a republican.
I have no problem debating issues but smears without foundation piss me off.

 

[skinny23]

And you're a member of this board because...?

You're a member of this board because you do or have used gear, want to use gear, use "legal supplements" or want to sell them-- or, at the very least, are interested in all this stuff. Right?

Bush is the only President IN HISTORY to pledge to go after steroids and other "preformance enhancing" drugs IN HIS STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS!!! And he must mean it because he's given fewer SOTUAs and formal press conferences than any prez in history.

You are all here bacause of a similar interest- and you want to vote for a man who is going to drive it all even more underground, make it more difficult to get, and make the penalties against it more severe? I mean this in a kind way, but you'd all make one shitty PAC.

And I can't help but bite: Bush is stronger militarally? He was snortting phat rails of coke when Kerry was shooting and getting shot at. Fug- even Nadar would have dropped bombs after 9/11. The ability to order generals to do what they were made to do doesn't make Bush strong. It makes him a BigLittleMan.

Maybe enough rights will be taken after Patriot Act 3 that this board will be taken down. Go ahead then-- vote your gear goodbye.

SK23

 

[fun28hi]

I agree skinny... Your points are great... Legalizing drugs is a seprete issue and dont want it to cloud my point about the loss of personal liberty and increasing pressure to punish steroid use.

 

[rubicon]

I don't feel that it's necessary to say that I "hate" any of the candidates. Furthermore, although Bush's stance on steroids sholud be of concern to all of us, it shouldn't decide your vote. We shoud also keep in mind that neither party has a sparkling record on social issues. But in reponse to ColdHeartBear, if you're comfortable with buying into all of those Republican tokens and smoke screen statistics, then go ahead and delude yourself.

 

[strider]

Hey bro's its good that you can speak your mind about the subject, but like I said in the beginning (if anyone even read it) if it starts to turn ugly and we cant act mature it gets deleted, i hate to do that since we are all adults and i feel that would be some form of censorship and that would make me no better than the goverment.
Its a board of views and ideas and knowledge, there should be no reason to cut down another for thier beliefs , mis-beliefs, ideas,opinions, or clouded fact or facts that are faucet.

the simple fact is we will not decide our future, our children will with what we give to them and leave them to use.

There is no simple way to avoid war, it will be war even if we dont defend ourselves or even attack back, they will still come after us for our beliefs,religion,or even our way of life.

I agree though I dont really like any of the candidates they both have issues that i would not wanting to run my country, but If I vote and i will Bush will be it. for my own reasons and ideals.

I wont get into why or how or any other conversation, I will and thats all.

 

[ColdHeartBear]

All the democrat supporters above have resorted to smears without any proof. I laid my facts out and they are all checkable. If you read the entire thread I stated specific democrats of the past that I could support. Including 2 socialists. There are no antecedents left of their particular stripe in the democratic party.
So accordingly I vote my conscience when the issues are not national survival or further weakoning of the USA.
Which means that only for senators and president do I consistently vote republican.
I consistently vote against the democrat in all races except the sheriff's race. And even in that race I have only voted democratic twice. He is now gone and there is unlikely to be another democrat that has character worthy of my vote.

 

[rubicon]

The last point is very well-taken and should be respected. That is "vote your heart." Otherwise be tolerant of every one elses opinions and skip over all the name-calling, profanity and personal attacks. Discussions like this are like debating the meaning of the gospels. Each side can easliy line-up a long list of citations to prove his or her argument. But it does not necessarily make it so and the truth value of any statement is not based upon the number of people who subscribe to it. I am done with this thread but no doubt there are others with plenty left to say.

 

[skinny23]

Well CBear-- at least you vote. That's better than 50% of all the US folks who could but don't.
I think we can all agree on one thing: if you don't vote you can do like the O.G. Poster's icon and have a nice cup of shut the fug up.
One thing I will check you on tho- why follow party lines (you always vote republican)? I've voted in EVERY vote since I turned 18 (I registared on my Bday) and have always been a "decline to state". I'm not a democrate (this Nov. I'm "anybody but Bush")-- I read up on all candiadates regardless of what party they belong too and vote for the best person. I have voted GOP and even Green and Libertarian. No Giant Party Corporation is gonna tell me who to vote for.

If you do vote Bush, remember this: you've put a man into the most powerful postion in the world who waved hello to Stevie Wonder.

 

[ColdHeartBear]

Please read my posts more carefully. When I say consistently,,,that is all I am saying....There are aspects to each candidate which may lead to an inconsistent party vote but remains consistent with my core beliefs. I do vote for losing causes when the national security is not at stake.....including the main beneficiary of my non-national votes-The Libertarians.

 

[strider]

Well CBear-- at least you vote. That's better than 50% of all the US folks who could but don't.
I think we can all agree on one thing: if you don't vote you can do like the O.G. Poster's icon and have a nice cup of shut the fug up.
One thing I will check you on tho- why follow party lines (you always vote republican)? I've voted in EVERY vote since I turned 18 (I registared on my Bday) and have always been a "decline to state". I'm not a democrate (this Nov. I'm "anybody but Bush")-- I read up on all candiadates regardless of what party they belong too and vote for the best person. I have voted GOP and even Green and Libertarian. No Giant Party Corporation is gonna tell me who to vote for.

If you do vote Bush, remember this: you've put a man into the most powerful postion in the world who waved hello to Stevie Wonder.

so did i bro..lol

we can pawn Kerry's watch and buy enough food for ny cities homless..i saw that on television about facts of them both and his watch is about $200,000.00 not bad for a guy who is after everything for the people, or is himself?
and bush is not the most articulate guy is he? we might get in trouble and have another dixie chicks incident when he is talking to foreign countries huh?

they both are a pain in the ass and i will be suprised if they even know whats best for the people, the people are the only ones who know that.
Vote for me, lets get everything everyone needs, now i said needs not wants, for a better economy and better future.

you cant make everyone happy all the time

 

[AZ1]

“the middle class and the poor, the real tax payers.”
How does paying a ridiculously lower percentage of income tax in relation to your income make the middle class and the poor the real tax payers. The rich already pay a higher percent on their income and the other way to make millions besides salary income is Business ownership and investing.

“Like they have ever done anything for us”
Where do you live? An apartment? That apartment is owned by rich people. Where do you work? That company is owned by rich people. And if its publicly traded, its owned by rich ass investors who provide jobs for millions of middle class. The United States economy depends on business, and the people who take the risks to build and create these companies which provide goods and services to millions of people and jobs for tons of families deserve to reap great benefits. The tax code is certainly structured to build businesses but that is what makes this country what it is financially, the world Wealthiest Nation.

“1000 brave American soldiers die in Iraq on the behalf of oil companies.”
Please, then why am I paying more for gas now than before the war. And it really is a shame to see the war that way, to totally cover your eyes to the good that is transforming that nation. If you don’t have friends over there then you probably don’t know because there is a lot you don’t see on tv. What other nation would rebuild a country it went to war with immediately after major combat?

“There is , nor has there ever been any eveidence of weapons of mass destruction.”
So what else, the holocaust never happened? Do a search on google for these keywords “mustard gas found iraq” lemme guess, now you’ll say “I want more evidence” ok you may be too young to remember this but here ya go
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/12/15/Worldandnation/Atrocities_attributed.shtml
Heres your buddy JK himself on that subject:
http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/KerryBOS-Cut1-12secs.mp3

“There was still time to gather more international support.”
The premise of this statement is that something bad is going to happen. So what does international support matter. What nation are you in?

 

[rubicon]

I hate to grace that last post with a response. But just how many knee-jerk, gut-level pronouncements are coming. You obviously are not exercising any ability or grace whatsoever to tolerate any opinion or statement which is not in agreement with your own beliefs. Remember, this is America. When we don't agree, we still remain members of the loyal oppostion. Every one wants to protect and make this a better nation. We just don't see that happening entirely the same way. However, I still defend and respect your right to opinion and expression even if I don't agree with the medium. At least you care.