Why is it we all seem to have the mentality
- Thread starter pudgy
- Start date
W
WeirdAl
Guest
machine99 said:
I don't necesarrily agree with this... I gained well on 200mg eow of cyp. BUT, my natural levels had been almost non-existant at that point, so I gained about as well as I could have naturally with high-normal test levels - not to mention that the eow injection schedule wreaked havoc on my mental state due to the roller coastering hormone levels.
But I think it depends on how far you are from your natural limits (size wise), and how much of an increase over your natural limits (test level wise) you are going.
H
Harvey Balboner
Guest
For me I don't respond well to any type of drugs unless I go with a really high dose.
Right now on 875mg of prop each week. Not seeing huge gains because of dieting, but no sides either.
Right now on 875mg of prop each week. Not seeing huge gains because of dieting, but no sides either.
machine99
New member
These guys are having a similar discussion and look at the doses they are talking about...Also if you look at the pictures of the guys on this forum many of these guys are big mofos! So its all relative, at different stages we all go from using small amounts of gear to more and more. You won't see too many guys saying they use 2g/week who don't look like they juice, but I have seen plenty of guys using 500mg/week or so, that I didn't know juiced until they told me and then it was "Yeah I'm on my 4th or 5th cycle" and I'm like WTF!!! Not saying I'm huge, but I'm still in the 750mg-1g/week stage
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4881
http://www.professionalmuscle.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=4881
tugs, just because the side effects caused from supraphysiological doses of AAS may be "temporary," it is actually quite possible that the underlying pathologies these drugs may be causing in your body will be permanent. That's what I was driving at in my response.
It's pretty much universally accepted that elevated cholesterol, elevated triglycerides, and a skewed hdl/ldl profile collectively represent one of four significant predictors of CAD - the most common cause of cardiovascular disease and death. So the question becomes, "How long does it take for a poor lipid profile to adversely affect one's long-term health?" Unfortunately, no one is able to predict that "x" number of days/weeks/months/years lived under the influence of an abnormal lipid profile will cause irreversable damage. So we all take a chance and run cycles with ridiculously high levels of androgens, multiple synthetic compounds, and a host of other ancillaries to combat the visible side effects for extended periods of time. When the sides disappear post-cycle, we're relieved and tell everyone that the problems are only temporary.
My diet is about as clean as a high calorie diet can possibly be. I haven't eaten fast food in nearly 9 years. I stopped eating ALL fried foods two years ago. I eat salmon and oatmeal every single day. I have never consumed a single alcoholic beverage or smoked anything in my entire life. Until a few weeks ago, it had been almost 3 years since I ate any ground beef. And you know what, a few weeks after coming off a deca/test/dbol staggered moderately dosed cycle, my cholesterol still checked in at 190, HDL 25, and LDL 141. The total cholesterol reading is 50-60 points higher than baseline, and the ratio for a 32 year old is absolutely pathetic. So even controlling my diet to what many would consider an extreme degree, it still wasn't enough to counter the adverse effects from AAS.
How often do you see a bunch of fit guys in their 20's and 30's sitting in a cardiologist's office waiting for an echocardiogram, or parked at the department of nephrology at a research center waiting for a renal ultrasound. Me? Well I have never seen this. So we trust our own propaganda that sides are controllable and that we're living a healthy lifestyle when, in reality, we may actually be contributing to our own demise. My point is that without periodic semi-invasive procedures, it's just not possible to track the minute physiological effects that AAS users are experiencing. But no one gets them done because no one believes they're necessary because everyone is assymptomatic (until it's too late).
And this brings me to my approach to AAS use. Let's start by looking at some facts:
(1) Testosterone is a natural hormone that is extremely beneficial to our overall health as long as it stays within physiological levels. In fact, the World Health Organization has toyed with the idea of administering exo test as a form of male contraception.
(2) Supraphysiological levels of testosterone will have a deleterious affect on many biomarkers used to assess the general health of an individual.
(3) Nearly every synthetic androgen (e.g., oxandrolone, stanozolol, etc.) will adversely affect many biomarkers, even at very low doses. There have been so many studies that I have read on this very subject. I couldn't hardly believe it but one study indicated that within 10-12 weeks of administering a low dose of oxandrolone, the test subjects' lipid profiles were so bad that the researchers actually switched the subjects to 100mg/wk (I think) of nandrolone, which interestingly significantly improved their lipid profiles.
(4) Mg for mg, nandrolone is 2.4X more anabolic than testosterone (pretty sure that's the right statistic).
Here are some observations that I have made over the past 9 years of training:
(1) Adding a significant amount of LBM (I'm talking 100+ pounds) takes a very, very long time of consistent training, eating, and recovering. Prepare to spend 12-15 years of your life working on this one.
(2) If everyone gained 20 pounds of LBM with each 10-12 week cycle and kept 12-15 pounds post cycle, we would all be professional bodybuilders after juicing for 3 years. Clearly, this is not happening, no matter how much gear we use. The truth is we're not gaining 20 pounds of ripped, dry, LBM with each cycle...more like 2-5 pounds. A net gain of 20 pounds of LBM is enormous and would represent a 2" increase in your quads, 2-3" increase in your arms, and 3-5" increase in your chest. Any experienced lifter will tell you that's just not gonna happen in 10 weeks, more like 4-5 years.
(3) Echoing doggcrapp's sentiments, if you don't look like a weight trainer during your teenage years, without ever actually lifting a weight, LOL, then don't waste your money, time, and health trying to make it as a pro bodybuilder today. Ever check out the pics of Lee Priest at 17or Jay Cutler as a teen? They are absolutely SICK. These guys started so far ahead of the rest of the world, it makes you want to say, "It's just not fair!" Even with their genetics, look at how long it has taken them to build the degree of musculature necessary to compete in today's IFBB environment.
Now some info about me: I'm 32 years old, at 5'10" and ~245lbs. @ 9-10% bf, I've put on some decent mass after almost 9 years of training, my physiology is extremely receptive to AAS, I have all the children I want, I value my health tremendously, and I want to make sure that I'm around for my family in 30 years.
I never rely on drugs for muscle gains. I rely on my training, nutrition, and rest for my gains. I rely on the drugs to hasten my recovery from my training. This approach is completely opposite that used by the majority of AAS cyclers. If you possess this attitude, you will never abuse AAS, you will simply use them as a tool in your development.
As I've already mentioned, I recently came off a 4 month cycle and experienced a dramatic transformation. My weight may have only increased by 10-15 pounds, but everything looked awesome. I had really nice vascularity throughout my quads, chest was fuller, back super thick...just better muscle maturity throughout. And this is very common among long-term users. Check out http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=26298&highlight=length+cycle+debate for other cyclers' experiences with extended cycles.
However, I wasn't thrilled with some of the sides I was experiencing, mostly from the highly androgenous testosterone and dbol. Without a doubt, many of the side effects resulting from AAS use do not contribute to one's long-term health, quite the opposite.
So, taking the above-listed facts and observations into account, I have decided to never use the traditional cycle again. Instead, from now on, I will maintain a testosterone level at the high-normal end of the scale through exo administration as my base. I will add a low dosage of Deca (perhaps 200mg/wk) to that base and run that continuously. Nandrolone appears to have the longest track record of problem-free medical use. Further, many HRT docs are comfortable enough with Deca to prescribe it to their patients. That means a lot to me. Depending on my powerlifting meet requirements, I will cycle the testosterone above the physiological scale, combined possibly with an oral (e.g., dbol) for as little time as possible. I intend to maintain testicular form and function through periodic hcg use, but I also have no interest at this point in ever normalizing my HPTA since I fully subscribe to the idea behind HRT. I have no doubt whatsoever that I will continue to make significant improvements to my physique.
After 6 months or so, I intend to have a full blood workup to analyze some key health predictors. Additionally, I will continue to follow up with specialists who are monitoring my organs. Periodic echocardiograms, ultrasounds, etc. will indicate whether the drugs are adversely affecting my physiology.
Obviously, this strategy won't work for many of you. Perhaps you don't have any children yet and need to preserve some degree of homeostasis. Others may not respond well to low dosages. Everyone has his reasons. Personally, I don't earn my living with my body. I do offer personal training services which is why I built my gym, but the bulk of the bread comes from the corporate world. So I have very little to gain and everything to lose by potentially ruining my health through irrational AAS use/abuse.
I have been thinking about this for about a month, now. And I'm glad I was given an opportunity to share my thoughts. If anyone wants to discuss this, fire away. I feel that this topic is more relevant than many may believe.
It's pretty much universally accepted that elevated cholesterol, elevated triglycerides, and a skewed hdl/ldl profile collectively represent one of four significant predictors of CAD - the most common cause of cardiovascular disease and death. So the question becomes, "How long does it take for a poor lipid profile to adversely affect one's long-term health?" Unfortunately, no one is able to predict that "x" number of days/weeks/months/years lived under the influence of an abnormal lipid profile will cause irreversable damage. So we all take a chance and run cycles with ridiculously high levels of androgens, multiple synthetic compounds, and a host of other ancillaries to combat the visible side effects for extended periods of time. When the sides disappear post-cycle, we're relieved and tell everyone that the problems are only temporary.
My diet is about as clean as a high calorie diet can possibly be. I haven't eaten fast food in nearly 9 years. I stopped eating ALL fried foods two years ago. I eat salmon and oatmeal every single day. I have never consumed a single alcoholic beverage or smoked anything in my entire life. Until a few weeks ago, it had been almost 3 years since I ate any ground beef. And you know what, a few weeks after coming off a deca/test/dbol staggered moderately dosed cycle, my cholesterol still checked in at 190, HDL 25, and LDL 141. The total cholesterol reading is 50-60 points higher than baseline, and the ratio for a 32 year old is absolutely pathetic. So even controlling my diet to what many would consider an extreme degree, it still wasn't enough to counter the adverse effects from AAS.
How often do you see a bunch of fit guys in their 20's and 30's sitting in a cardiologist's office waiting for an echocardiogram, or parked at the department of nephrology at a research center waiting for a renal ultrasound. Me? Well I have never seen this. So we trust our own propaganda that sides are controllable and that we're living a healthy lifestyle when, in reality, we may actually be contributing to our own demise. My point is that without periodic semi-invasive procedures, it's just not possible to track the minute physiological effects that AAS users are experiencing. But no one gets them done because no one believes they're necessary because everyone is assymptomatic (until it's too late).
And this brings me to my approach to AAS use. Let's start by looking at some facts:
(1) Testosterone is a natural hormone that is extremely beneficial to our overall health as long as it stays within physiological levels. In fact, the World Health Organization has toyed with the idea of administering exo test as a form of male contraception.
(2) Supraphysiological levels of testosterone will have a deleterious affect on many biomarkers used to assess the general health of an individual.
(3) Nearly every synthetic androgen (e.g., oxandrolone, stanozolol, etc.) will adversely affect many biomarkers, even at very low doses. There have been so many studies that I have read on this very subject. I couldn't hardly believe it but one study indicated that within 10-12 weeks of administering a low dose of oxandrolone, the test subjects' lipid profiles were so bad that the researchers actually switched the subjects to 100mg/wk (I think) of nandrolone, which interestingly significantly improved their lipid profiles.
(4) Mg for mg, nandrolone is 2.4X more anabolic than testosterone (pretty sure that's the right statistic).
Here are some observations that I have made over the past 9 years of training:
(1) Adding a significant amount of LBM (I'm talking 100+ pounds) takes a very, very long time of consistent training, eating, and recovering. Prepare to spend 12-15 years of your life working on this one.
(2) If everyone gained 20 pounds of LBM with each 10-12 week cycle and kept 12-15 pounds post cycle, we would all be professional bodybuilders after juicing for 3 years. Clearly, this is not happening, no matter how much gear we use. The truth is we're not gaining 20 pounds of ripped, dry, LBM with each cycle...more like 2-5 pounds. A net gain of 20 pounds of LBM is enormous and would represent a 2" increase in your quads, 2-3" increase in your arms, and 3-5" increase in your chest. Any experienced lifter will tell you that's just not gonna happen in 10 weeks, more like 4-5 years.
(3) Echoing doggcrapp's sentiments, if you don't look like a weight trainer during your teenage years, without ever actually lifting a weight, LOL, then don't waste your money, time, and health trying to make it as a pro bodybuilder today. Ever check out the pics of Lee Priest at 17or Jay Cutler as a teen? They are absolutely SICK. These guys started so far ahead of the rest of the world, it makes you want to say, "It's just not fair!" Even with their genetics, look at how long it has taken them to build the degree of musculature necessary to compete in today's IFBB environment.
Now some info about me: I'm 32 years old, at 5'10" and ~245lbs. @ 9-10% bf, I've put on some decent mass after almost 9 years of training, my physiology is extremely receptive to AAS, I have all the children I want, I value my health tremendously, and I want to make sure that I'm around for my family in 30 years.
I never rely on drugs for muscle gains. I rely on my training, nutrition, and rest for my gains. I rely on the drugs to hasten my recovery from my training. This approach is completely opposite that used by the majority of AAS cyclers. If you possess this attitude, you will never abuse AAS, you will simply use them as a tool in your development.
As I've already mentioned, I recently came off a 4 month cycle and experienced a dramatic transformation. My weight may have only increased by 10-15 pounds, but everything looked awesome. I had really nice vascularity throughout my quads, chest was fuller, back super thick...just better muscle maturity throughout. And this is very common among long-term users. Check out http://anabolicreview.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=26298&highlight=length+cycle+debate for other cyclers' experiences with extended cycles.
However, I wasn't thrilled with some of the sides I was experiencing, mostly from the highly androgenous testosterone and dbol. Without a doubt, many of the side effects resulting from AAS use do not contribute to one's long-term health, quite the opposite.
So, taking the above-listed facts and observations into account, I have decided to never use the traditional cycle again. Instead, from now on, I will maintain a testosterone level at the high-normal end of the scale through exo administration as my base. I will add a low dosage of Deca (perhaps 200mg/wk) to that base and run that continuously. Nandrolone appears to have the longest track record of problem-free medical use. Further, many HRT docs are comfortable enough with Deca to prescribe it to their patients. That means a lot to me. Depending on my powerlifting meet requirements, I will cycle the testosterone above the physiological scale, combined possibly with an oral (e.g., dbol) for as little time as possible. I intend to maintain testicular form and function through periodic hcg use, but I also have no interest at this point in ever normalizing my HPTA since I fully subscribe to the idea behind HRT. I have no doubt whatsoever that I will continue to make significant improvements to my physique.
After 6 months or so, I intend to have a full blood workup to analyze some key health predictors. Additionally, I will continue to follow up with specialists who are monitoring my organs. Periodic echocardiograms, ultrasounds, etc. will indicate whether the drugs are adversely affecting my physiology.
Obviously, this strategy won't work for many of you. Perhaps you don't have any children yet and need to preserve some degree of homeostasis. Others may not respond well to low dosages. Everyone has his reasons. Personally, I don't earn my living with my body. I do offer personal training services which is why I built my gym, but the bulk of the bread comes from the corporate world. So I have very little to gain and everything to lose by potentially ruining my health through irrational AAS use/abuse.
I have been thinking about this for about a month, now. And I'm glad I was given an opportunity to share my thoughts. If anyone wants to discuss this, fire away. I feel that this topic is more relevant than many may believe.
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BLEED GREEN
New member
Good and well thought out goldenear-So in a nutshell you are going to continuosly run Test (unknown amount) with and extra 200mg/wk of Deca.
I appreciate the input that you gave here since my life situation(married-already have 2 children) and goals in and out of the gym appear to be closely matched with your own.
I appreciate the input that you gave here since my life situation(married-already have 2 children) and goals in and out of the gym appear to be closely matched with your own.
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goldenear,that was good reading--truthfully I,m not sure what to think.you have not eaten meat in 3 yrs so i can see you are slightly biased,but still,there is plenty of good insight in your reading.
Don't forget a person,depending upon where he's coming from,could make a good argument against drinking coffee,due to sides.I,m not trying to seek justification to argue with you,i guess I,m just thinking devil's advocate here.
I admit I am clearly not as hip as you or others are in this ass stuff--so what i go by alot is if so many others are doing ok by using gear than why not--if this is not true than where are all the stories of permanent sides?and I,m sure there are some,just as some people suffer from drinking and smoking too much.So as you stated somewhwere the point of all this is in the amount your body can handle.
One more thing-if a large part of your critera is due to thinking that diet and rest and more proper training are being compromised due to the use of large amounts ,and so in a lateral attempt to correct these bad habits you push the " unhealthy envelope" than I think where going in the wrong direction.Cheating on dieting is something I do--i am definitly not commited too a diet 24/7--i can't and its not important to me.like others,I just want to get big arms,chest,huge traps and a slightly smooth stomach--and thats a 100% improvment for me--and i can't forget--a sky high libido.Doing gear affords me the luxury of being able to eat what I want and not having to workout the way many others who are good trainers would want me to.yea so i cheat--so what.2 yrs ago before i started lifting my arms were 15"--now there 18 1/2"--2 yrs ago i could only bench 180 1x--now I,m doing sets of 320lbs and so on.there are also sides to a man of 50 not feeling or looking good and strong and having a lack of libido.Those sides are gone.
The last and most important point--I have had my blood checked in the last 6 months 5 times.Always there was degrees of some pathology--to a point where it was professionally felt that with stoppage of ass use,things should return to normal.
Don't forget a person,depending upon where he's coming from,could make a good argument against drinking coffee,due to sides.I,m not trying to seek justification to argue with you,i guess I,m just thinking devil's advocate here.
I admit I am clearly not as hip as you or others are in this ass stuff--so what i go by alot is if so many others are doing ok by using gear than why not--if this is not true than where are all the stories of permanent sides?and I,m sure there are some,just as some people suffer from drinking and smoking too much.So as you stated somewhwere the point of all this is in the amount your body can handle.
One more thing-if a large part of your critera is due to thinking that diet and rest and more proper training are being compromised due to the use of large amounts ,and so in a lateral attempt to correct these bad habits you push the " unhealthy envelope" than I think where going in the wrong direction.Cheating on dieting is something I do--i am definitly not commited too a diet 24/7--i can't and its not important to me.like others,I just want to get big arms,chest,huge traps and a slightly smooth stomach--and thats a 100% improvment for me--and i can't forget--a sky high libido.Doing gear affords me the luxury of being able to eat what I want and not having to workout the way many others who are good trainers would want me to.yea so i cheat--so what.2 yrs ago before i started lifting my arms were 15"--now there 18 1/2"--2 yrs ago i could only bench 180 1x--now I,m doing sets of 320lbs and so on.there are also sides to a man of 50 not feeling or looking good and strong and having a lack of libido.Those sides are gone.
The last and most important point--I have had my blood checked in the last 6 months 5 times.Always there was degrees of some pathology--to a point where it was professionally felt that with stoppage of ass use,things should return to normal.
It seems this has developed into a debate of whether superphysiological dosages, or long term usage is more advantageous than the latter. But I would like to comment on the original thread as to why people develop the mentality more is better. At the end of the day what we all have in common is a goal, for some its increase in muscle mass thats primarily important, and for others its strength thats of primary of importance. Due to this what leads us down the path of more is better is simply curiosity, for example if the first cycle of gear consisted of 500mg of test a week, duplicating this time and time again one would never no whether more would be better, also the exitement of using gear would diminish after doing the same cycle again and again. I think the psychological factor is also very important and often ignored. As we all tend to think what we dont try we will never know, which isnt neccesarily a bad thing.
As whether more is better I think its is extremely difficult for a person to really tell in terms of LBM gains on a cycle if they were honest with them selves. The reason why I say this is because every single cycle involves many factors such as gear, sleep, calories and training. Additionally how many of us here duplicate exactly what we did on the cycle before in terms of diet, sleep, training. With this in mind it is very hard to tell how much lean bodymass you have gained after a cycle, and it useless (and I also hate people who brag) to say that ive gained 30lbs after my cycle. As this statement simply does not reveal how much muscle tissue has been gained. Lastly if a higher dosage of test did yield better gains of LBM, you cannot simply say for sure 100% that this was due to the increase in test. As it may have been due to more efficient workouts, higher calories which may have been the contributing factor to the increase in LBM.
From a personal note I will put my hands up and admit that I am a long term cycler, I dont want to reveal how long Ive been on for because I feels this info is personal to me. I started at 500mg per week of test, have been up to 750mg per week then back down to 500mg a week. Basically I didnt notice a difference between the two dosages, but it could be argued by some that a extra 250mg per week might not have been high enough to yield better results. The only thing I found to be the most important factor was diet and calories, one thing was sure was that an increase in calories would yield increase in BF and LBM and increase in strength, and keeping my cals the same after my weight hit a plateu, just left me with no weight increase and no strength increase for weeks on end. I also qould like to comment on that on this long cycle I did not see a diminish in gains at any point, in fact the gains were equal from start to finish and like I said were more diet and caloric dependant. Strangley enough now Im coming down in body fat I can compare my BF and LBM levels from when i was bulking as i always record everything down every week, and ive noticed a similiar patterns to last year in terms of muscle and fat mass ratio gained being 2BF/1LBM. But I still cannot answer whether more is better as I have never been past 750mg a week (and I only went this high for 4 weeks), and have always used 500mg a week every cylce as this has yeilded satisfying gains always, and is cheaper to do.
As whether more is better I think its is extremely difficult for a person to really tell in terms of LBM gains on a cycle if they were honest with them selves. The reason why I say this is because every single cycle involves many factors such as gear, sleep, calories and training. Additionally how many of us here duplicate exactly what we did on the cycle before in terms of diet, sleep, training. With this in mind it is very hard to tell how much lean bodymass you have gained after a cycle, and it useless (and I also hate people who brag) to say that ive gained 30lbs after my cycle. As this statement simply does not reveal how much muscle tissue has been gained. Lastly if a higher dosage of test did yield better gains of LBM, you cannot simply say for sure 100% that this was due to the increase in test. As it may have been due to more efficient workouts, higher calories which may have been the contributing factor to the increase in LBM.
From a personal note I will put my hands up and admit that I am a long term cycler, I dont want to reveal how long Ive been on for because I feels this info is personal to me. I started at 500mg per week of test, have been up to 750mg per week then back down to 500mg a week. Basically I didnt notice a difference between the two dosages, but it could be argued by some that a extra 250mg per week might not have been high enough to yield better results. The only thing I found to be the most important factor was diet and calories, one thing was sure was that an increase in calories would yield increase in BF and LBM and increase in strength, and keeping my cals the same after my weight hit a plateu, just left me with no weight increase and no strength increase for weeks on end. I also qould like to comment on that on this long cycle I did not see a diminish in gains at any point, in fact the gains were equal from start to finish and like I said were more diet and caloric dependant. Strangley enough now Im coming down in body fat I can compare my BF and LBM levels from when i was bulking as i always record everything down every week, and ive noticed a similiar patterns to last year in terms of muscle and fat mass ratio gained being 2BF/1LBM. But I still cannot answer whether more is better as I have never been past 750mg a week (and I only went this high for 4 weeks), and have always used 500mg a week every cylce as this has yeilded satisfying gains always, and is cheaper to do.
LA
New member
goldenear- first an excellant post and I have to say I agree with most of the things you are pointing out. However, something Animal said once keeps running through my head- "Half of the people in the world who have had heart attacks had bad cholesterol".
Now on too my original point. With all things being equal- which means if you had crappy workout habits, crappy eating, etc. and kept them crappy or good habits and kept them good (consistant is the word I'm looking for here) then the higher the dose of AS the more muscle you will put on- period.
The above statement takes in no regards to side effects. Also the climb in muscle mass is not linear. 2g of test will not produce twice as much muscle mass as 1g of test. More, yes but not double. Again in regards to sides. The higher the dose the more sides come into play. Again this is not linear. 2g of test will produce more than twice the sides as 1g.
Food for thought.
I myself use large doses. I respond fairly crappy to AS in general. I respond much better to IGF, GH and Slin (so maybe it all evens out in the end). Everyone needs to keep this in mind when they see me or anyone posting a theortical cycle. 1g of test to me maybe equivallent to 500mg to someone else and visa-a-versa. Again, the sides of higher doses don't seem to be a problem to me, but then again I've seen 75mg of tren eod cause serve hairloss in others and even gyno in a few.
Bottom line- everyone is different. Know what is best for you and keep your goals in mind when deciding.
Now on too my original point. With all things being equal- which means if you had crappy workout habits, crappy eating, etc. and kept them crappy or good habits and kept them good (consistant is the word I'm looking for here) then the higher the dose of AS the more muscle you will put on- period.
The above statement takes in no regards to side effects. Also the climb in muscle mass is not linear. 2g of test will not produce twice as much muscle mass as 1g of test. More, yes but not double. Again in regards to sides. The higher the dose the more sides come into play. Again this is not linear. 2g of test will produce more than twice the sides as 1g.
Food for thought.
I myself use large doses. I respond fairly crappy to AS in general. I respond much better to IGF, GH and Slin (so maybe it all evens out in the end). Everyone needs to keep this in mind when they see me or anyone posting a theortical cycle. 1g of test to me maybe equivallent to 500mg to someone else and visa-a-versa. Again, the sides of higher doses don't seem to be a problem to me, but then again I've seen 75mg of tren eod cause serve hairloss in others and even gyno in a few.
Bottom line- everyone is different. Know what is best for you and keep your goals in mind when deciding.
I'm going to comment on some specific statements you made to provide additional clarity. Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I should have been the first time around...
Actually, I eat meat everyday. I simply had chosen to refrain from consuming large amounts of ground beef, substituting ground turkey in its place. My point is that even abstaining from foods very high in saturated fats, it still wasn't enough to fix a poor lipid profile resulting directly from AAS use.
Actually, I gave up coffee 7 years ago LOL!
This is the mentality, unfortunately, that has been propagated from these Internet boards. I have definitely fallen into this same trap. Actually, the stories are starting to surface if you look closely enough. Flex Wheeler is gone (renal disease), a couple of other big-name pro's are out because of health problems. Go over to AR...there are a couple of stories posted regarding some recent deaths. I've also read a few threads on health issues over at Elite this year. If you read my post again, you'll see that I explain that without probing ultrasounds or biopsies, you cannot be absolutely sure that you are not damaging your body. Blood tests are good, but they do have limitations.
Not the amount of AAS, but the level of tolerance your body has to the adverse effects of AAS. I'm not saying that taking too much testosterone is going to kill you. I'm suggesting that the consequences of taking too much testosterone may eventually kill you. There's a big difference there.
I'm arguing just the opposite. If you rely on your nutrition and training for gains, you won't get sucked into the "more is better" mentality where you rely on the drugs for your gains. Taking higher doses won't really adversely affect your training or diet. However, higher doses have screwed up my sleep schedule before.
Bro, there's a big difference between eating a relatively "clean" bulking diet and chomping Big Mac's everyday. I'm not "dieting" either. But I realize that without qualtiy food, all the training and drugs in the world won't do anything for me. Again, my point was that even abstaining from foods known to be unhealthy, it still wasn't enough to counter the adverse effects from AAS on my lipid panel.
tugs, you're only cheating yourself with that kind of an attitude. Can you imagine what would happen if you really dialed in your training and nutrition with your pharmaceutical use?
Simple HRT doses can fix those problems. No need for 1g/wk!
Kudos to you for being under the care of a medical professional. The majority of users on these boards are not following up with anyone except fellow users. If you read my thoughts on AAS use, you will gather that I don't intend to stop using AAS ever. That's my point. Using "super supplements" is consistent with my chosen lifestyle and goals. I'm merely suggesting an alternative to the traditional cycle that will be safer and more productive in the long run for me and possibly many others.
tugs said:
Actually, I eat meat everyday. I simply had chosen to refrain from consuming large amounts of ground beef, substituting ground turkey in its place. My point is that even abstaining from foods very high in saturated fats, it still wasn't enough to fix a poor lipid profile resulting directly from AAS use.
Actually, I gave up coffee 7 years ago LOL!
This is the mentality, unfortunately, that has been propagated from these Internet boards. I have definitely fallen into this same trap. Actually, the stories are starting to surface if you look closely enough. Flex Wheeler is gone (renal disease), a couple of other big-name pro's are out because of health problems. Go over to AR...there are a couple of stories posted regarding some recent deaths. I've also read a few threads on health issues over at Elite this year. If you read my post again, you'll see that I explain that without probing ultrasounds or biopsies, you cannot be absolutely sure that you are not damaging your body. Blood tests are good, but they do have limitations.
Not the amount of AAS, but the level of tolerance your body has to the adverse effects of AAS. I'm not saying that taking too much testosterone is going to kill you. I'm suggesting that the consequences of taking too much testosterone may eventually kill you. There's a big difference there.
I'm arguing just the opposite. If you rely on your nutrition and training for gains, you won't get sucked into the "more is better" mentality where you rely on the drugs for your gains. Taking higher doses won't really adversely affect your training or diet. However, higher doses have screwed up my sleep schedule before.
Bro, there's a big difference between eating a relatively "clean" bulking diet and chomping Big Mac's everyday. I'm not "dieting" either. But I realize that without qualtiy food, all the training and drugs in the world won't do anything for me. Again, my point was that even abstaining from foods known to be unhealthy, it still wasn't enough to counter the adverse effects from AAS on my lipid panel.
tugs, you're only cheating yourself with that kind of an attitude. Can you imagine what would happen if you really dialed in your training and nutrition with your pharmaceutical use?
Simple HRT doses can fix those problems. No need for 1g/wk!
Kudos to you for being under the care of a medical professional. The majority of users on these boards are not following up with anyone except fellow users. If you read my thoughts on AAS use, you will gather that I don't intend to stop using AAS ever. That's my point. Using "super supplements" is consistent with my chosen lifestyle and goals. I'm merely suggesting an alternative to the traditional cycle that will be safer and more productive in the long run for me and possibly many others.
BLEED GREEN said:
That is correct. From everything that I've read, supplementing with exo testosterone in order to bump your levels into the high normal range is completely healthy and acceptable for long term use. Further, I'm convinced that the bulk of the side effects and health problems experienced in AAS users are a direct result of the androgenicity of these compounds. That's why I'm using Deca as the primary anabolic component. If you can keep yourself in a positive nitrogen state continuously, you will build muscle, without a doubt. Deca does this better than testosterone without the androgenous sides.
LA said:
LOL! Suggesting that the other half who met their demise actually had a favorable lipid profile. Makes sense, though, since there are three additional predictors of CAD: high BP, diabetes, and something else. And CAD is only one of the contributing factors of myocardial infarctions!
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machine99
New member
In response to the original post, the doses on this board aren't insane to me at all. The link I posted showed guyys talking about 2, 3, 4 grams of test a week and on this board 1gram a week is insane.
Goldnear-I liked your post, but honestly steroid users are drug users. Some use it just enough to get them what they need to break that pleatu and gain a few pounds, others will abuse the stuff. To me its better to be a steroid abnuser, than a herion, crack, cocaine, etc abuser. You aren't robbing people for juice money and you don't look like your all sickly when your all juiced up. Even if you might on the inside. But like I said earlier you still haven't said a way to avoid a bad lipid profile or to fix it. What if you don't respond to low doses like yourself? take low doses anyways just so you know your on, get no benefit and be done with the whole thing? Personally I want to get to the size I want first than come off with plenty of gh, slin, t.3 and .clen hopefully maintain most of my gains. Than just do "safer" cycle in the future only using drugs like HGH, IGF, primobolan, anavar. Also you mentioned Doggcrapp in your post, and he does talk about focusing in on diet and training and I diet and train the way he outlined, but he also said he uses 1000mg/week of test. So how can it be too high when your talking to tugs and just fine for DC?
Goldnear-I liked your post, but honestly steroid users are drug users. Some use it just enough to get them what they need to break that pleatu and gain a few pounds, others will abuse the stuff. To me its better to be a steroid abnuser, than a herion, crack, cocaine, etc abuser. You aren't robbing people for juice money and you don't look like your all sickly when your all juiced up. Even if you might on the inside. But like I said earlier you still haven't said a way to avoid a bad lipid profile or to fix it. What if you don't respond to low doses like yourself? take low doses anyways just so you know your on, get no benefit and be done with the whole thing? Personally I want to get to the size I want first than come off with plenty of gh, slin, t.3 and .clen hopefully maintain most of my gains. Than just do "safer" cycle in the future only using drugs like HGH, IGF, primobolan, anavar. Also you mentioned Doggcrapp in your post, and he does talk about focusing in on diet and training and I diet and train the way he outlined, but he also said he uses 1000mg/week of test. So how can it be too high when your talking to tugs and just fine for DC?
Again, I'll respond to some points in this post. I guess I'm not explaining myself well enough the first time around, so I apologize.
My fault...Maintaining your testosterone levels at high normal will actually have a positive effect on your lipid profile according to the medical professionals. So by avoiding extended periods of supraphysiological testosterone levels, I shouldn't have to worry about my lipid profile. Also, I mentioned that in a study I read, nandrolone actually reversed the abnormal lipid profiles resulting from oxandrolone use. Now, I'm hoping that a very small dosage of nandrolone (e.g., 200mg/wk) will have the same effect in me. I also plan on implementing a structured schedule of aerobic exercise, something I have not consistently practiced in ~6 years.
I'm not actually convinced that most people don't respond well to low doses. Just because one doesn't blow up with 15 pounds of fluid during a cycle doesn't mean that the drugs are not exerting their effects physiologically. The study that you referenced did indicate a positive correlation between muscluar gains and dosages. I am not debating the validity of that study. Instead, I am merely offering my thoughts on the subject as well as indicating how I plan to use AAS from now on.
First, what if you cause irrepairable damage to yourself in the process? Would it be worth it in the long run? I'm certainly not suggesting that you will have problems and definitely hope you never do, just trying to elicit some additional thought and discussion. Secondly, the drugs you mention surprisingly have some major drawbacks associated with their use. Primo and Var will both screw up your cholesterol levels because they don't aromatize. GH taken in supraphysiological levels, combined with AAS, has been causally linked to permanent left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH). At least with AAS use, LVH tends to dissipate post cycle. Further, synthetic androgen use will, as we all know, depress your testosterone levels adding to the strain on your body. Thirdly, I don't want to come off, LOL! I think you're wasting your time by coming off. The approach I have chosen is the safest way of using AAS in a permanent manner that I could find. As I mentioned, though, this will definitely not work for everyone depending on specific circumstances.
LOL, I never said that I supported his cycle suggestions taking long-term health into consideration. I can appreciate the man's comments on training and nutrition as they mirror my experiences. But I certainly don't intend on following his cycling protocol. I'm not condemning him, or anyone else, either. I'm simply commenting on my personal decisions given my degree of risk tolerance.
machine99 said:
My fault...Maintaining your testosterone levels at high normal will actually have a positive effect on your lipid profile according to the medical professionals. So by avoiding extended periods of supraphysiological testosterone levels, I shouldn't have to worry about my lipid profile. Also, I mentioned that in a study I read, nandrolone actually reversed the abnormal lipid profiles resulting from oxandrolone use. Now, I'm hoping that a very small dosage of nandrolone (e.g., 200mg/wk) will have the same effect in me. I also plan on implementing a structured schedule of aerobic exercise, something I have not consistently practiced in ~6 years.
I'm not actually convinced that most people don't respond well to low doses. Just because one doesn't blow up with 15 pounds of fluid during a cycle doesn't mean that the drugs are not exerting their effects physiologically. The study that you referenced did indicate a positive correlation between muscluar gains and dosages. I am not debating the validity of that study. Instead, I am merely offering my thoughts on the subject as well as indicating how I plan to use AAS from now on.
First, what if you cause irrepairable damage to yourself in the process? Would it be worth it in the long run? I'm certainly not suggesting that you will have problems and definitely hope you never do, just trying to elicit some additional thought and discussion. Secondly, the drugs you mention surprisingly have some major drawbacks associated with their use. Primo and Var will both screw up your cholesterol levels because they don't aromatize. GH taken in supraphysiological levels, combined with AAS, has been causally linked to permanent left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH). At least with AAS use, LVH tends to dissipate post cycle. Further, synthetic androgen use will, as we all know, depress your testosterone levels adding to the strain on your body. Thirdly, I don't want to come off, LOL! I think you're wasting your time by coming off. The approach I have chosen is the safest way of using AAS in a permanent manner that I could find. As I mentioned, though, this will definitely not work for everyone depending on specific circumstances.
LOL, I never said that I supported his cycle suggestions taking long-term health into consideration. I can appreciate the man's comments on training and nutrition as they mirror my experiences. But I certainly don't intend on following his cycling protocol. I'm not condemning him, or anyone else, either. I'm simply commenting on my personal decisions given my degree of risk tolerance.
machine99
New member
Ok so by using a same amount of deca in all your cycles you are hoping that this will help your lipid profile. Ok well I could throw that into my cycles, might help.
As far as causing irreverisble damage, by using what dose? 750-1000mg/week? Do you have any studies that show the permenant side effects from these doses over 600mg/week of test which had relatively low amount of sides.
Also with primo and anavar these are steroids that are always considered "safer" when considering your blood pressure, cholestrol. But of course everything has side effects.
What would be supraphysiological dose of GH?
As far as never wanting to come off. I have been there before, but I think once I get to my desired size I will cut back to maybe 1-2 cycles (8weeks) a year. Of course getting to my desired size might never happen until my wife just tells me that I'm not allowed on top anymore lol.
Also you said
By the way this is a very good thread I think, largely due to your input.
As far as causing irreverisble damage, by using what dose? 750-1000mg/week? Do you have any studies that show the permenant side effects from these doses over 600mg/week of test which had relatively low amount of sides.
Also with primo and anavar these are steroids that are always considered "safer" when considering your blood pressure, cholestrol. But of course everything has side effects.
What would be supraphysiological dose of GH?
As far as never wanting to come off. I have been there before, but I think once I get to my desired size I will cut back to maybe 1-2 cycles (8weeks) a year. Of course getting to my desired size might never happen until my wife just tells me that I'm not allowed on top anymore lol.
Also you said
what would be high and what would be too high according to the studys that this info is based on.
By the way this is a very good thread I think, largely due to your input.
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