T3 during bulking cycle
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homonunculus
New member
WOuldn't go much higher than this or it will slow gains (for most folks).
-Randy
-Randy
normally in a high carb environment , as well as low cortisol ( due to elevated insulin etc) , i dont really see a need for t3 supplementation exogenously , endo production is around 23-26 mcg in a normal male , just use some guggul (25 mg per 50 lbs of bodyweight) and it should keep things normal bro, will also help keep cholesterol under control .
homonunculus
New member
Ray,
Nice info. I think the idea is to induce a slightly elevated metabolism above what it would be during a bulking cycle (when met. rate is higher than when dieting), not to supplement a deficient thyroid. This would conceivable help with:
Fat accumulation. Usually, using the 12.5-25µg / day is when someone is doing slin.
Elevate protein turnover: Both synthesis and catalysis. Muscle growth within the cell is a pretty complex procedure, as the myofibrils must be organized (and split - note I said myofibrils, not fibers) as the cell hypertrophies. Of course, if hyperplasia is underway (fibers split), its even a more complex task. (Another topic, altogether.) Speeding this up will hypothetically speed muscle growth.
-Randy
Nice info. I think the idea is to induce a slightly elevated metabolism above what it would be during a bulking cycle (when met. rate is higher than when dieting), not to supplement a deficient thyroid. This would conceivable help with:
Fat accumulation. Usually, using the 12.5-25µg / day is when someone is doing slin.
Elevate protein turnover: Both synthesis and catalysis. Muscle growth within the cell is a pretty complex procedure, as the myofibrils must be organized (and split - note I said myofibrils, not fibers) as the cell hypertrophies. Of course, if hyperplasia is underway (fibers split), its even a more complex task. (Another topic, altogether.) Speeding this up will hypothetically speed muscle growth.
-Randy
xcelbeyond
New member
My experience
with T-3 during a bulking cycle was BAD! I lost MUSCLE and GAINED FAT (verified through body composition testing) and was taking more gear at that time than I had EVER taken!
I've used the low dose T-3 for contest prep, but that was a whole different use/environment.
xcel
with T-3 during a bulking cycle was BAD! I lost MUSCLE and GAINED FAT (verified through body composition testing) and was taking more gear at that time than I had EVER taken!
I've used the low dose T-3 for contest prep, but that was a whole different use/environment.
xcel
xcelbeyond
New member
And my protein intake was relatively high (325-350g ED) during the bad experience. Overall calorie intake was 3500+ (I'm just a small guy 
) I was also following Raver's T-3 protocol, without the Clen.
xcel
) I was also following Raver's T-3 protocol, without the Clen.xcel
hitmeoff
New member
xcelbeyond said:
You mean 1mcg per 1lb of bodyweight??? No wonder you lost muscle! Cant explain the fat gain though.
I ran 25mcg ED for 12 weeks during my bulker. I gained 42lbs, but it wasnt the leanest lbs. Hard to tell how much of an effect the T3 had on me since I was POUNCIN on the cals all day long.
Skip
Banana
I have not been a big believer in any t3 during the offseason BUT in usual "Skip" fashion, I have to try things out for myself to see exactly how things work.
I have been using 30-40mcg per day for the past 3 months and it has worked BEAUTIFULLY. This time around, I decided to also keep my diet relatively clean for the offseason and try to stay within only 20-25 pounds from the stage. I have never looked better and my gains have been some of the best in years.
I believe there are a ton of variables from person to person so it seems that t3 use in the offseason is something that each person will have to try out and see how it works for them.
Skip
ADD: Raybravo: I would question the amounts that you stated as far as normal output for the thyroid. When the thyroid is deficient, t4 is given (synthroid) and the dosages are EXTREMELY small (on top of the fact that t4 is so much weaker than t3). I am wondering how accurate that number really is. Not beating you up, just wondering how accurate your numbers are.
I have been using 30-40mcg per day for the past 3 months and it has worked BEAUTIFULLY. This time around, I decided to also keep my diet relatively clean for the offseason and try to stay within only 20-25 pounds from the stage. I have never looked better and my gains have been some of the best in years.
I believe there are a ton of variables from person to person so it seems that t3 use in the offseason is something that each person will have to try out and see how it works for them.
Skip
ADD: Raybravo: I would question the amounts that you stated as far as normal output for the thyroid. When the thyroid is deficient, t4 is given (synthroid) and the dosages are EXTREMELY small (on top of the fact that t4 is so much weaker than t3). I am wondering how accurate that number really is. Not beating you up, just wondering how accurate your numbers are.
basically , the thing to question here is , how much use is the 12.5 to 25 mcg supplementation useful ? cos natural production is close to that, now lets say we go higher (30-40 mcg or even say 50 mcg) , t3 is an uncoupler , what does this mean ? makes the whole process of ADP to ATP conversion hard , the resulting reaction is that the mitochondria must work overtime trying to pump hydrogen ions from the inside to the outside of the cell , whole process will end up compromising strength , and as a result muscle mass gains , ofcourse this might not be observed at 25-50 mcg dose , but its still a compromise and a simple addition of guggul and some l -tyrosine to aid the t4 to t3 conversion to keep up body's natural production is enough .homonunculus said:
so whole process ( the good stuff u just outlined at the end of ur post) will go on if u just keep t3 levels normal in the body i feel , no need to elevate it unnecessarily . and again , exogenous supplementation of t3 would be unnecessary , also with slin , u increase t3 to a higher level to combat fat gain , we have to note that t3 is increasing igf binding proteins as well as increasing shbg , while 2 benefits of slin is increasing free igf-1 levels and decreasing shbg ... right ?
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homonunculus
New member
Ray and Skip - LOL!!! TWo peas in a pod, man.
Ray, good points you bring up. I think the idea is that adding *small* amounts of T3 when bulking will simply increase T3 and not feedback inhibit exogenous production. Again, no data to go on except that of folks like skip who've done it and seen good results and those of Xcel who've gone with super high amounts not seen good results.
As far as uncoupling, its interesting to note that DNP - master of all uncouplers LOL - does not seem to eat up muscle mass like one would expect. (When it first came out, I thought it woudl for sure, as there are chemicals that have the same effect on energyt status of muscle cells that induce major atrophy - beta-guanadinopropionic acid).
As far as the IGF binding proteins, I don't know for sure how bad a thing it is to have bound IGF1 in the blood. It travels to target cells in this way. Its binding action occurs only after a BP specific protease has stripped the BP away. Idea is, that having more blood-borne, but bound IGF may be beneficially, b/c it this will mean more delivery to the tissues!
What's your take on the BP proteases?...
-Randy
Ray, good points you bring up. I think the idea is that adding *small* amounts of T3 when bulking will simply increase T3 and not feedback inhibit exogenous production. Again, no data to go on except that of folks like skip who've done it and seen good results and those of Xcel who've gone with super high amounts not seen good results.
As far as uncoupling, its interesting to note that DNP - master of all uncouplers LOL - does not seem to eat up muscle mass like one would expect. (When it first came out, I thought it woudl for sure, as there are chemicals that have the same effect on energyt status of muscle cells that induce major atrophy - beta-guanadinopropionic acid).
As far as the IGF binding proteins, I don't know for sure how bad a thing it is to have bound IGF1 in the blood. It travels to target cells in this way. Its binding action occurs only after a BP specific protease has stripped the BP away. Idea is, that having more blood-borne, but bound IGF may be beneficially, b/c it this will mean more delivery to the tissues!
What's your take on the BP proteases?...
-Randy
i dont really have a convincing reply for u bro , but lets just take the example of igf-1 and long r3 igf-1 , the long r3 one seems to work better as its so resistant to binding proteins ..yes , having binding proteins does prolong half life , but for the igf-1 to work , the binding proteins are not helping , this is just my crude understanding of the whole process mind u , never really bothered to look into it in detail ...
another thing , i think if u supplement with exo t3 , atleast beyond normal levels , or whatever level for that matter , endo production is going to go down , maybe for a li'l while the exo and endo production will add up , but supression is inevitable .
just throwing out random ideas here lol , whatchu think bro ?
another thing , i think if u supplement with exo t3 , atleast beyond normal levels , or whatever level for that matter , endo production is going to go down , maybe for a li'l while the exo and endo production will add up , but supression is inevitable .
just throwing out random ideas here lol , whatchu think bro ?
homonunculus
New member
Ray,
Dunno, man, except to say that a lot of guys has said good thing about low dose T3. Skip here. BigKIWI has mentioned the same.
It all kinda comes down to trying it out in some of these cases. The science only gives us hypotheses, but it doesn't often test our ideas directly - nobody's gonna fund those kinds of things. Human subject's committees at universities aren't gonna do it, either, never mind that the FDA doens't exactly see our side of things. LOL
-R
Dunno, man, except to say that a lot of guys has said good thing about low dose T3. Skip here. BigKIWI has mentioned the same.
It all kinda comes down to trying it out in some of these cases. The science only gives us hypotheses, but it doesn't often test our ideas directly - nobody's gonna fund those kinds of things. Human subject's committees at universities aren't gonna do it, either, never mind that the FDA doens't exactly see our side of things. LOL
-R
lol . 
Good info here!
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